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Post by Rick Barbee on Mar 9, 2023 8:18:37 GMT -6
Just a thought that popped into my head in the form of a question though.
"Isn't (Instinctive) something you just naturally do without any forethought of doing it?"
If so, I'm an aimer, but I do it "Instinctively".  |
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fdp
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Post by fdp on Mar 9, 2023 8:29:45 GMT -6
"Isn't (Instinctive) something you just naturally do without any forethought of doing it?"
That's what I always thought....but hey......
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Post by Rick Barbee on Mar 9, 2023 8:58:37 GMT -6
Let's get something straight here:
I'm not trying to denigrate those who are instinctive shooters.
I don't care how anyone does it, or say they do it as long as they are happy with the results.
I'm just saying (I Aim) "instinctively".
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Post by Rick Barbee on Mar 9, 2023 12:02:30 GMT -6
Stacy Groscup said: "The arrow is like pointing your finger." I agree. Byron Ferguson says: "Become the arrow." Again, I agree. I say: "The arrow becomes my finger." |
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Post by draven on Mar 10, 2023 13:54:18 GMT -6
Stacy Groscup said: "The arrow is like pointing your finger." I agree. Byron Ferguson says: "Become the arrow." Again, I agree. I say: "The arrow becomes my finger." I've read the first time about this in Timeless Bowhunting by Roy S Marlow. I was told about this long time ago in eastern archery training.   |
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fdp
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Post by fdp on Mar 10, 2023 16:05:33 GMT -6
One of the pieces that always get left out of "instinctive shooting" conversations is setting the bow up so that it shoots where YOU look. It doesn't matter where it shoots for anyone else, it doesn't matter what arrow you are shooting, it doesn't matter how you set up the centershot, doesn't matter what the brace height is, where you anchor or anything else. It has to shoot where YOU look. If it doesn't then you are just spinning your wheels.
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Post by Rick Barbee on Mar 10, 2023 16:35:51 GMT -6
One of the pieces that always get left out of "instinctive shooting" conversations is setting the bow up so that it shoots where YOU look. It doesn't matter where it shoots for anyone else, it doesn't matter what arrow you are shooting, it doesn't matter how you set up the centershot, doesn't matter what the brace height is, where you anchor or anything else. It has to shoot where YOU look. If it doesn't then you are just spinning your wheels. Exactly, and quite often that approach does not yield the best arrow flight. |
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Post by draven on Mar 10, 2023 17:02:13 GMT -6
One of the pieces that always get left out of "instinctive shooting" conversations is setting the bow up so that it shoots where YOU look. It doesn't matter where it shoots for anyone else, it doesn't matter what arrow you are shooting, it doesn't matter how you set up the centershot, doesn't matter what the brace height is, where you anchor or anything else. It has to shoot where YOU look. If it doesn't then you are just spinning your wheels. This is not true. You can shoot a bow totally out of tune and your brain will make subtle adjustments to make the arrow go where you want. Do you think the caveman was tuning his arrows? No, he was shooting what he could find and the brain was doing the work - learning through trial and error method. |
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Post by Rick Barbee on Mar 10, 2023 18:34:21 GMT -6
One of the pieces that always get left out of "instinctive shooting" conversations is setting the bow up so that it shoots where YOU look. It doesn't matter where it shoots for anyone else, it doesn't matter what arrow you are shooting, it doesn't matter how you set up the centershot, doesn't matter what the brace height is, where you anchor or anything else. It has to shoot where YOU look. If it doesn't then you are just spinning your wheels. This is not true. You can shoot a bow totally out of tune and your brain will make subtle adjustments to make the arrow go where you want. Do you think the caveman was tuning his arrows? No, he was shooting what he could find and the brain was doing the work - learning through trial and error method. But, it works Draven. Rick Welch teaches this very method in his school. But, like I said, quite often that approach does not yield the best arrow flight. I do know what you mean though. The brain will adjust eventually to the flight of the arrow. |
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Post by draven on Mar 11, 2023 6:03:15 GMT -6
Oh, it works. I was arguing the need for the bow to shoot where the archer is looking.
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fdp
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Post by fdp on Mar 11, 2023 8:35:52 GMT -6
Draven if I am getting good clearance off the string, the arrow isn't flying side ways down range, the bow noise is acceptable and it hits where I am looking the bow is tuned for me.
"Tuning" means different things to different people and there are lots of different levels of tune. And in the grand scheme of things the end product is the same regardless of how you do it.
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Post by draven on Mar 18, 2023 8:07:17 GMT -6
Frank, yes. That "tuned enough" was good until the www was developed and tried to change it. Do you heard that Howard Hill or John Shultz shooting bareshafts? I didn't. The most "tune oriented" archery is Olympic Archery. And it is fun to hear and see Jake Kaminski shooting above 330 at 70 yards with untuned arrows. In my opinion the most important part about tuning is this: a better tune is covering for shortcomings on a "not that great" shot. And this is not actually told to the people. You see and hear archers who can't hit the barn door at 20 yards talking about paper tune.
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Post by Rick Barbee on Mar 18, 2023 9:20:18 GMT -6
I can accurately shoot arrows, that aren't that well tuned.
My tuning is for getting the best penetration I can get on an animal.
A wobbling arrow will not penetrate as well as one that is flying true.
Yes, you can put enough fletching on to achieve that true flight, but the arrow requiring the least amount of drag to achieve that true flight will deliver the higher amount of energy at impact.
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Post by Bowmania on Mar 20, 2023 15:21:36 GMT -6
As Byron said to me, 'I know the gap so well, I'm instinctive'.
Very hard to learn instinctive, by shooting instinctive. We don't learn that way.
Bowmania
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Post by draven on Mar 21, 2023 9:06:47 GMT -6
I will share my experience with "Instinctive". I didn't start archery as many. Yes, in childhood I was shooting bows made from saplings and arrows from small branches, but the formal Archery for me started with Japanese archery.They teach you first awareness of the body in movement drawing the bow - shooting an imaginary bow is the bread and butter -, they teach you a sequence and they don't teach you an aiming method per se. Shooting years at 28m at a target with a diameter of 12" will make a good execution to hit the spot, aiming is just a feel. They have this ancient idea that aiming the arrow is done with your body, your bow and your spirit to send the arrow there. The spirit component is related to intention and state of mind and can be said thousands of words about this. To cut it short, with a good form while holding the bow and with the intent to hit "there" you don't need anything else to make the arrow hit "there". I relocated and I had to renounce to Japanese archery and changed to Western archery. I joined a club with 3d Course and start my "Western archery" journey. With some adjustments after a couple of months I was proficient enough shooting "instinctive" because I had what I call the Cornerstone of archery: Good and repeatable execution sends the arrow there. "Good" is not necessary more than : grab the bow the same way, draw the same way and let loose the arrow same way every time you shoot. How you hold the bow, how you determine your anchor or lack of anchor is irrelevant as long as it is repeatable. Execution first, result after. I was "instinctive" aimer for another years, honing my execution and hitting the spot just by Will - lets call it the instinctive is a method of willing your arrow "there" where your body and mind work together to make it happen. I've competed and won several local tournaments just by "instinctive" but I failed below my expectations when the environment changed in others. This is the moment when I started to think about other methods and a video of Rick Welch which resonated with what I think about aiming made me act. He was saying that for instinctive aimer the aiming "stops when the bow hand stops" - aka the brain did all the work internally - while for the aimer the aiming starts after the archer is at full draw. The second part is not quite true, but the part that made sense is "for an archer who's shooting the arrow and hits the target with the same bow, no matter the aiming method, the bow hand is in same position". And the natural question that required an answer was: how can I eliminate the doubt from the "bow hand location" when I am in an unfamiliar environment? And that's when split-vision described by Howard Hill came handy. I started to pay attention in peripheral vision to the arrow / bow hand and use it just as checkpoint in relation with a specific target. You get results based on how much work you put in it and results came naturally. Just having that checkpoint is enough until today. yes, I use harder aiming systems like pick-a-point or stringwalking but knowing your bow and arrow and your gaps becomes as close as "intuitive" as can be. I wouldn't start a new archer by teaching an aiming system - actually I am helping beginners to start - before they are capable to slap arrows in a target at 15 yards instinctively. At that distance they need to have a repeatable sequence before telling them how to aim.
PS Regarding the arrow tuned and "instinctive" just check online some videos of Japanese archery shooting bareshafts: they are not even reaching the target most of them, let alone left right hits. But they hit the target with an arrow with feathers. The brain solves tuning issues for the "instinctive" archer because it's a Willing process involved there and the brain will make what you want happen. Throw a ball to the kid and he will not catch it first. But soon with exercises he will. That's the brain working to accomplish the task the owner wants kind of situation. Same with "instinctive".
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